Sorry

[andygates]

It turns out that the UK did allow US 'rendition' flights to refuel after all.  Our wretched and gutless politicians have fessed up to playing ball with this vile criminal practice.  As a British voter, I'd just like to apologise for not getting these damned idiots out of power.  Their actions shame the nation, and shame me.  I'll try harder to get the rancid goat gobblers out next time.

Comments

[teahisme.livejournal.com]

Well they are making a stand on immigration. None of us Americans are allowed into your fine country with your fine standards. I mean clearly we aren't up to your standards.

[andygates.livejournal.com]

No, that's just pettiness for the sake of looking "tough on immigration" to court the right-wing vote. An unrelated phenomenon.

[fox-uk.livejournal.com]

Um, are your facts correct?

It appears that the US used a US base leased from the UK in UK territory and then rendered in an extraordinairy manner a couple of people without actually telling anyone from Blighty.

They were not given notice that they were allowed to do so, because they didn't tell anyone. Nothing to do with "gutless politicians". I mean, sure, they are, but this time it actually wasn't anything to do with them.

[andygates.livejournal.com]

We don't lease stuff out for the purposes of torture.

If we *do* lease stuff out for the purposes of torture, someone needs to be slapped upside the fucking head. Perhaps Foreign Secretaries should be waterboarded, the same way that police officers are tasered in training, so they understand what it's about.

Milliband represents the Government. He needs to haul the American ambassador over hot coals and get a grovelling apology. He needs to set conditions that mean that we are never party (no matter how loosely) to this sort of weasel thuggery again. Clearly, just trusting their assurances that they didn't do anything isn't enough.

Special relationship? My arse. >:(

C'mon Yanks, defend rendition. I dare you.

[fox-uk.livejournal.com]

You are right. We do not lease things out for the purposes of torture. The US knows this and would not have attempted to use UK territory for the purpose unless it was some ultra-right wing tin pot general/spook doing things on the sly, IMO. In which case the actual bods in Capitol Hill and Whitehall would have been clueless about it.

Come on Andy, you are beginning to sound like the Daily Mail. Your rant is effectively the same as saying if you let someone housesit and they then shit on the rug, you are the one who needs to be fitted for incontinence pants. Get a sense of perspective. :P

[andygates.livejournal.com]

You suggest that this was a rogue element in the USA. I think that's incredibly naive.

[fox-uk.livejournal.com]

I kind of include anyone who works in the West Wing as part of that rogue element :P

[andygates.livejournal.com]

Well, there at least we agree. Google around for Cheney's defense of torture and be appalled, etc etc. These puke-monkeys seem to think they're playing the Executive Edition of 24.

[teahisme.livejournal.com]

they are and it sickens many of us. Sadly there are still some out there that believe the current crew were great.

I'm still pissed off to know that my government can listen in on my personal phone calls to my husband in the UK. Just in case I might be saying something untoward to him. they can also hack into my internet and find out what and to whom I am speaking if it is "overseas."

I wont defend those currently in power. I didn't vote for them either time and have only tried to get them out since before they got in.

[ravenbait.livejournal.com]

I think the suggestion is that there's bugger all our politicians could have done to stop it if they didn't know it was happening. No one was tortured: the planes were refuelled. The US didn't say "Oh, hey, is it okay if we use the bases we leased for you to refuel planes we're using to transport captives to countries where they don't mind wiring car batteries to their testicles?"

I doubt it was a rogue element either, but saying the UK politicians played ball (as opposed to being oblivious) is over-egging the pudding, surely? Especially as we're talking about British territory -- it's not like they landed in Wiltshire.

However I agree absolutely that the British response should be a bit more than a sigh and: "I hope you realise we're terribly disappointed. Don't let it happen again."

[andygates.livejournal.com]

There's oblivious and oblivious: asking the CIA, for example, instead of the USAF, would probably have found this stuff out sooner. But I can't say for sure whether that was complicit villainy, lazy villainy, or just being off the ball.

I don't pay for 'em to be any of the above, though.

And the sigh is all they're going to do.

So is that it? Are we just up the arse of a superpower and unable to set our own terms any more? That's pretty fucking feeble.

[ravenbait.livejournal.com]

But would it have found it out in time to stop it happening? I doubt it.

That the sigh is all they're going to do is the really galling part for me. FFS, it's like being the weak kid next to the school bully. It's like we're so afraid of them taking against us that we can't even bring ourselves to take a stand when they're in the wrong. That's what infuriates me. It's like "Oh well, never mind, we're good friends so I'm sure it was just a misunderstanding."

I hate that international diplomacy will ride roughshod over the moral feelings of the populations involved, for reasons that aren't even made clear to those populations. What is it exactly that we're so afraid of losing by saying "Bad dog!"

And, you know, I strongly suspect that both populations here are disgusted. I no longer consider that politicians even in so-called democracies reflect the will of the people.

[andygates.livejournal.com]

Point is, the gutlessness comes when Shitty McShitterson the habitual shitter says, "won't do it again" and we say "hokay" and nothing more.

Shitty McShitterson needs to be *punished* for taking a crap on our carpet. He won't be. And that's where the gutlessness comes in.

And you'll have to excuse my less than perfect argument-forming, but I'm absolutely furious about this, and anyway, rhetoric doesn't mean shit.

[simoneck.livejournal.com]

You're right. They should have informed the UK that that's what the planes were being used for.
The biggie for me is the current extradition treaty. Completely one sided. The US congress refuses to pass their side of the agreed treaty. That's fine, they can do that if they want. But we should then recind our legislation, not just leave the UK part in place.
As you say, gutless.

[fox-uk.livejournal.com]

This I agree with!

[teahisme.livejournal.com]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about with this one. What is the deal with the extradition treaty?

[andygates.livejournal.com]

The US can extradite people more easily from the UK than we can from youse guys. The key case highlighting this is the "Natwest Three", the British fallout from Enron - they've just been sentenced on your side of the pond.

It's another case of exceptionalism, which, along with not recognising the ICC, sticks in the internationalists' craws.

[teahisme.livejournal.com]

ICC? and i have no idea whot hte Natwest Three are. I'm going to guess they were brits involved in Enron and its stupid and unethical money shuffling.

So i'm going to guess Andy I shouldn't invite you over for a July 4th cookout?

Just like you are not your country's policies please remember that many of us Americans aren't our countries either. For instance, I had no idea about the finger printing of all people "visiting" america until very recently.

[andygates.livejournal.com]

The ICC is the International Criminal Court. It's where cases too sensitive for national jurisdictions go - war crimes trials, for example. The USA refuses to acknowledge it.

I know most Americans (even most crazy right-wing nutters) are nice people. Hell, most people are nice people. But the actions of the state are deplorable, and there is a special responsibility for those actions inherent in the principle of a democracy.